New to me:The two-table potluck system for kashrut
Thanks to BZ, of Mah Rabu, for this post linking me to this old post of his explanating the two-table potluck system.
I wish I'd known about this system when I wrote this post re kashrut in a synagogue. Though it's not a solution for many of those who are more observant than I, the two-table potluck system would work for me.
I wish I'd known about this system when I wrote this post re kashrut in a synagogue. Though it's not a solution for many of those who are more observant than I, the two-table potluck system would work for me.
posted by Shira Salamone at 2:32 PM
10 Comments:
Thanks to BZ, of Mah Rabu, for this post linking me to this old post of his explanating the two-table potluck system.Thanks for the shout-out!
Though it's not a solution for many of those who are more observant than I...It seems from your other post that you're talking about two different issues:
1) People hold different standards of kashrut, i.e. "kosher" means different things to different people.
2) People don't trust that other people are telling the truth about their own kitchens.
So the question of whether the two-table system is a solution for "more observant" people depends on what specifically you mean here by "more observant". If you mean that their standard of kashrut is more restrictive than yours (i.e. #1 above), then that's ok - depending on the range of practices in a particular community, Table 2 can be defined to encompass whatever standard of kashrut is needed (chalav yisrael, whatever), so that these people will have somewhere to eat. (See this other post for more on the theory.) If you mean that people don't trust that other people are adhering to a particular standard of kashrut even when that standard is spelled out in detail, then a two-table potluck is no better or worse than a one-table potluck; such people simply can't eat at potlucks.
"If you mean that people don't trust that other people are adhering to a particular standard of kashrut even when that standard is spelled out in detail, then a two-table potluck is no better or worse than a one-table potluck; such people simply can't eat at potlucks."
Now that you mention it, here's the relevant quote from the post of mine to which I linked:
"On the one hand, my first rabbi in New York was adamant that no food should be brought into a synagogue from home kitchens on the grounds that there was no way to judge the kashrut (adherence to the laws of keeping kosher) of any kitchen not under rabbinical supervision, and that he, personally, did not want to be put in a position of saying that one person's cooking (even his own wife's) was kosher enough and another person's was not."
Sigh. I hadn't thought about that, but I guess I'm among the untrusting. I don't eat potluck *in a synagogue* even when I know that the cook(s) keep(s) kosher because I've seen--and made--enough kashrut errors that I truly believe that food prepared without kashrut supervision should not be served *in a synagogue,* and I won't eat it *in a synagogue* on principle, though I'll eat it in their home. See my post here explaining the four levels of kashrut observed by yours truly, depending on where I am and how the food's prepared. (Okay, so maybe I'm a little nutty on the subject.)
For the record, I will eat potluck served in a minyan or chavurah *in someone's home.* Since no private kitchen has kashrut supervision,there's no possibility of "michol lifnei iver/[putting] a stumbling block before the blind" (leading another person to [be tempted to] commit a sin, possibly without knowing it), because it's a given that a visitor is making a personal decision as to whether or not to trust the kitchen's kashrut, whereas visitors to Orthodox and Conservative synagogue simply assume that all food served there is under kashrut supervision. (I am under the impresssion that Reform, Reconstructionist, and unaffiliated synagogues are of various opinions re kashrut supervision, but I may be wrong.)
whereas visitors to Orthodox and Conservative synagogue simply assume that all food served there is under kashrut supervision.
Even when it's clearly a potluck?
(I am under the impresssion that Reform, Reconstructionist, and unaffiliated synagogues are of various opinions re kashrut supervision, but I may be wrong.).
Correct.
You may have a point about the potluck situation being obvious and a case of "let the eater beware." A potluck meal or kiddush is certainly more obvious than the cake situation at my local (as opposed to my preferred) Conservative synagogue.
I think that you're being unnecessarily stringent on what you expect of people, and the distinction of "in a synagogue" vs. "in a home" seems to me a political stance... you are unhappy with the Shul's rules, so you are boycotting. If you'll eat person X's cooking in their house, it is not magically less Kosher if they bring it to location "Y." Now, if you don't want to be seen judging others for their kashrut, avoiding everyone is a way to avoid that, but let's not pretend that it's Kashrut.
BTW: on the issue of Halacha, if a person keeps Kosher, and you know them to be reasonably knowledgable on Kashrut, you can eat their food. You can also rely upon them telling you something is Kosher (this is a semi-complex area of Jewish law, so ask a Rabbi for details, this is a VERY broad stroke statement). If you are actually concerned with if you are eating treif or not (as opposed to the nuances of witnessing, etc.), if they make a good faith effort to keep Kosher, you're probably fine.
You have to make a LOT of mistakes to actually render something non-Kosher, since our rules are generally fences around fences around fences.
I think that one of the nice things about NOT being in the conservative world is not worrying about this, as there is an unstated rule that we all keep our kitchens in-line with the local Rabbi's rulings on Kashrut, or you don't invite guests.
I think that you are separating yourself from your community unnecessarily taking what is a political position and not a Shomer Kashrut one, but consult your own Rabbi on matters of Jewish law.
"on the issue of Halacha, if a person keeps Kosher, and you know them to be reasonably knowledgable on Kashrut, you can eat their food."
The issue is whether or not everyone who brings food to a potluck meal can be assumed to be reasonably knowledgable on kashrut. (As I said, I'm not even sure *my own* knowledge of kashrut is sufficient.) That's always been my question. So how can I eat food from X's kitchen, because I know her well enough to trust her kashrut knowledge, but not from Y's kitchen, because I don't know him that well? I don't see this as a political decision.
"consult your own Rabbi on matters of Jewish law." This puts me in a funny position, under the circumstances. How am I supposed to consult, on matters of kashrut, a former black hat who eats cake from a bakery that's not under rabbinical supervision?
"If you are actually concerned with if you are eating treif or not (as opposed to the nuances of witnessing, etc.), if they make a good faith effort to keep Kosher, you're probably fine.
You have to make a LOT of mistakes to actually render something non-Kosher, since our rules are generally fences around fences around fences."
I'll give that some thought.
Actually, Miami Al, you're making a better case for eating, in a synagogue, potluck meals, the makers of which are at least trying to observe kashrut, than for eating, in a synagogue, cake from an unsupervised bakery, which might have a financial motive for saying that it uses only kosher ingredients. In the former case, at least it's obvious that one is choosing to trust the kashrut of someone else's kitchen, as BZ said above. But in the latter case, there's no way for visitors to know that the cake's from a bakery that doesn't have rabbinical kashrut supervision, unless someone tells them. It could be argued that potluck is not a "michshol" (stumbling block) situation, whereas cake from an unsupervised bakery is. I may rethink my position on potluck, thanks to you and BZ, but I'm sticking to my guns on eating cake from an unsupervised bakery served in synagogue--I still say it's a michshol, and I don't think that's a political stance. Can you imagine how embarrassing it would have been if the shul's shoppers hadn't chosen to buy the cheesecakes for Shavuot from a rabbinically-supervised bakery? How mortifying it would have been to have to tell our Orthodox visitors that we couldn't serve them cheesecake because it wasn't kosher.
When our Orthodox Shul did a bake sale, it came with the disclaimer that the food was prepared at home and that the Rabbi and Shul were not vouching for anyone's Kashrut. You simply assume that people contributing baked goods to a Shul fundraiser are only doing so if it's Kosher... and Cholov Yisrael people know to avoid dairy...
The two table approach does have a HUGE positive. If person X is not Kosher, but wants to participate, they can't without a two-table system. That let's the non-Kosher people all put stuff on table 1, and not feel like they aren't contributing... which is nice.
You couldn't do it in the Orthodox world because of the travesty of serving anything but kosher food, but it would work for informal non-official events. In the Orthodox world, people that don't have a Kosher home just pick things up from a Kosher bakery/store to bring instead of cooking.
You wrote, "So how can I eat food from X's kitchen, because I know her well enough to trust her kashrut knowledge, but not from Y's kitchen, because I don't know him that well? I don't see this as a political decision."
Well, it's political in that you know you could show up and only eat food from X (and anyone else you know), but you aren't going to do so for risk of offending Y. The way you only eat from X and not Y is you ask the people you know what they are bringing, and you only eat their food... pretty straightforward... the problems with doing that are political, not physical or halachic. :)
You also wrote, "The issue is whether or not everyone who brings food to a potluck meal can be assumed to be reasonably knowledgable on kashrut. (As I said, I'm not even sure *my own* knowledge of kashrut is sufficient.)"
Eh, the basics of Kashrut are pretty straightforward... separate meat and milk, don't cook fish and meat together (not a Kashrut issue, but lets group it in there), don't use the same cooking utensils for both. Don't use meat/dairy without hecture, and if you don't know the rules for other ingredients (what needs, what doesn't), but everything with a hecture.
Where knowledge comes into play is, "using the same oven for both," we do it, we cool the over down fully between switching, have a top heat element over, and if things start to accumulate on the bottom that look edible, toss the oven liner... a drop of coffee (with cream in it) falls into the soup while you are cooking, can you still serve it. You bought rice without hecture, can you use it (depends on pure rice vs. flavored), etc.
Again, accidents happen, but most of them are generally minor enough to not render the food or the utensils treif. Utensils lose the "flavor" over time, etc.
Basically, if they are trying, they are going to do fine. If they are machmir (stringent) when they don't know the rules, all is well.
There are rules for cooking meat over coals right before Shabbat starts (instead of being mostly cooked), if you don't know them, cook everything before hand and don't play games. If you know the rules, game away... stuff like that.
It's customary to use multiple vessels when using hot water on Shabbat... if someone doesn't know (my mom grabbed a tea bag, tossed it in a glass, and got water from the urn), they've certainly transgressed a custom, but would you suggest that my glass is now treif? It might be awkward if she handed the glass to me, but for her own consumption, who cares?
When we serve meat and fish at something informal, I always put small plates by the fish... If someone doesn't do that, it's their own perogative, not a kashrut problem, that sort of thing.
"Where knowledge comes into play is, "using the same oven for both," we do it, we cool the over down fully between switching, have a top heat element over, and if things start to accumulate on the bottom that look edible, toss the oven liner..."
I thought the problem was only with "toaster ovens" and the like--I didn't think there was a problem with using a full-size oven for both meat and dairy (baked separately). Okay, maybe we should start using foil on the bottom and toss it. (Thank goodness for recycling.) Thanks for the info.
"It's customary to use multiple vessels when using hot water on Shabbat..." I've heard of that, but since we're using "tea essence" (pre-brewed tea concentrate) poured into a cup from a tea pot, do we still need to use a separate vessel to get water from the urn?
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